Thinking about quitting the use of Byetta due to too much nausea, et
c.
Even though it has been a godsend as far as my bgs are concerned, I
feel sick all the time, have heartburn, and the diarrhea just don’t
work too well with my ability to work at my job.
I cannot take the 10 MCG dose, just the 5 and it really keeps me sick
feeling most of the time.
I was checking on the other drug called Symlin and it seems to have
the same side effects, so that does not appear to be an alternative.
I never have an appetite, but have only lost about 5 pounds in the 2
months I have been on it.
Does anyone have any ideas on what I can do to stay on the Byetta
apart from living on Prilosec OTC for the heartburn and something for
the diarrhea the rest of my life.
Linda Hatch-type 2
May 8th, 2003 at 9:03 am
i get some nausea but its only been bad last couple of days when i’ve
injected higher up on the abdomen, not lower where i was. as to
diarrhea ive HAD that due to the glucophage. have you talked to the dr?
Rebecca
On Jan 10, 2006, at 8:38 PM, Linda wrote:
Thinking about quitting the use of Byetta due to too much nausea, etc.
Even though it has been a godsend as far as my bgs are concerned, I
feel sick all the time, have heartburn, and the diarrhea just don’t
work too well with my ability to work at my job.
I cannot take the 10 MCG dose, just the 5 and it really keeps me sick
feeling most of the time.
I was checking on the other drug called Symlin and it seems to have
the same side effects, so that does not appear to be an alternative.
I never have an appetite, but have only lost about 5 pounds in the 2
months I have been on it.
Does anyone have any ideas on what I can do to stay on the Byetta
apart from living on Prilosec OTC for the heartburn and something for
the diarrhea the rest of my life.
Linda Hatch-type 2
Anything posted in this group is the opinion of the person who posted
it.
May 8th, 2003 at 12:46 pm
Linda, hi, sorry to hear you are having so many difficulties with byetta.
Perhaps the remedy that others have tried for the metformin tummy blues
would help you. It’s yogurt, plain full fat yogurt. With active
cultures. If you have a Trader Joe’s near you, they have several varieties.
I never had problems with metformin, virtually none with byetta, except
it did not work, so I didn’t need to try this. I understand it takes two
or three days to work and that half a cup a day is enough. What the
yogurt will do is coat your insides with good bacteria and resettle your
digestive process.
May 8th, 2003 at 4:12 pm
I am also seriously considering quitting byetta, going back to 5mcg
or maybe a once a day shot. I have been on 10 mcg for almost 3 weeks
and I am nauseous all of the time. My nausea is worse at nighttime
and the newest thing I am experiencing is chills – horrible chills.
Every night for the last week within 2 hours of taking my shot I am
getting horrible chills that feel like they are coming from my
bones. It is never less than 70 degrees in our house so there is no
reason for me to get this cold. I end up layering clothes and
getting in bed with a heating pad trying to warm up. It is
ridiculous! Sunday night we were out and I didn’t take my shot and I
didn’t have chills at all. Last night we were at my parents’ house
and I had to leave to come home because I was getting the chills and
couldn’t stay. Is anyone else experiencing this?
Kat
www.halfknits.com
Creating with our hands, giving with our hearts.
May 8th, 2003 at 9:38 pm
Kat, how long have you been on the 10mcg? I went through a short period
where I experienced some chills at the beginning. I sat on the rocking
chair with a heating pad. While I still feel colder than I felt
pre-byetta, the chills are gone.
I think I’ve always had a metabolism problem. Pre-byeta, my temp at the
docs would be around 97.3. I’ve taken thyroid that that didn’t help. The
doc was concerned, but then I think low-normal is normal for me.
When my dh and I first married, we want backpacking. This was before
diabetes and kids. <s> I went into hypothermia in the middle of the
night, even though the temperature was warm enough that this shouldn’t
have happened. My dh got up and heated me some hot chocolate. Oh, and
did I mention I had a down sleeping bag? LOL
May 9th, 2003 at 1:55 am
I find that my feet are always cold. I live in Florida and were socks to bed.
As for the nausa, I get it in the AM with a very full feeling about an hour
after breakfast and it lasts until about 2PM. I get the nausa again after dinner
but it is not as bad as in the AM. I think it is because I take my shot in the
AM and it is about 45 minutes before I eat. I eat when I get to work. As for
dinner I give the shot and am eating with 15 minutes. I just ignore the nausa
and because I feel so full, I don’t eat lunch. It has been suggested in past
post about seaband, you might want to try that, also contact you MD he should
have some suggestions to help.
Joy
Kat
www.halfknits.com
Creating with our hands, giving with our hearts.
Anything posted in this group is the opinion of the person who posted it.
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———————————
May 9th, 2003 at 5:06 am
I have been on 10 mcg for almost a month. I was on 5 mcg for one
month prior and while i was nauseous at first on the 5, I haven’t
had a lapse in nausea on the 10 mcg. I am finding it hard to
function with the nausea and at this point am trying to figure out
if it is worth taking.
My temp is always low and while I would be considered "cold natured"
these are chills like I have never felt before. Brrrrrr! I just
can’t get warm.
I have a prescription for compazine, but it knocks me out. I even
quartered the pill and took 1/4 and it made me so sleepy. With 4
kids and homeschooling this just doesn’t work for me. I try not to
wear my Sea Bands all of the time, but they do work when I wear
them.
I have an appt with my doctor on Friday and may ask him to move me
back to 5 mcg. I just don’t know what else to do. It is that or go
off it completely.
Any suggestions?
Kat
www.halfknits.com
Creating with our hands, giving with our hearts.
May 9th, 2003 at 10:26 am
I have had the chills a couple of hours after I take my evening 10 shot. I
really didn’t associate it with the Byetta because I hadn’t heard anyone else
say that it happened to them. I probably had nausea as bad or worst than anyone
but for the last couple of days I have been okay. I also got to the point that
I thought it just wasn’t worth it. I was the same way on 5. My dr. wouldn’t
listen to me when I told her I needed help with the nausea. She said hang in
there it will go away. She told me to take the shot just as I put the first
bite of food in my mouth. Well I tried waiting until after I ate and it helped
a lot. Does anyone know if this is harmful or if the shot is less effective
this way. Two days of no nausea is heaven. Sady
I am also seriously considering quitting byetta, going back to 5mcg
or maybe a once a day shot. I have been on 10 mcg for almost 3 weeks
and I am nauseous all of the time. My nausea is worse at nighttime
and the newest thing I am experiencing is chills ? horrible chills.
Every night for the last week within 2 hours of taking my shot I am
getting horrible chills that feel like they are coming from my
bones. It is never less than 70 degrees in our house so there is no
reason for me to get this cold. I end up layering clothes and
getting in bed with a heating pad trying to warm up. It is
ridiculous! Sunday night we were out and I didn’t take my shot and I
didn’t have chills at all. Last night we were at my parents’ house
and I had to leave to come home because I was getting the chills and
couldn’t stay. Is anyone else experiencing this?
Kat
www.halfknits.com
Creating with our hands, giving with our hearts.
May 11th, 2003 at 1:14 am
Kat, how were you doing on the 5mcg? Were your readings satisfactory?
Maybe going back to the 5mcg would work better. You’re right to talk
with your doctor about this. Please let us know how it goes.
BTW, we homeschooled, so I understand your need to be functioning.
Hugs,
May 11th, 2003 at 5:50 am
Don’t know about you and what your Dr says, but the info at the site
and the info i got with the byetta says eat after 20 min but before an
hour.
if i eat earlier than 20 min or after 30, i feel sick.
Rebecca
I have had the chills a couple of hours after I take my evening 10
shot. I really didn’t associate it with the Byetta because I hadn’t
heard anyone else say that it happened to them. I probably had nausea
as bad or worst than anyone but for the last couple of days I have been
okay. I also got to the point that I thought it just wasn’t worth it.Â
I was the same way on 5. My dr. wouldn’t listen to me when I told her
I needed help with the nausea. She said hang in there it will go
away.  She told me to take the shot just as I put the first bite of
food in my mouth. Well I tried waiting until after I ate and it helped
a lot. Does anyone know if this is harmful or if the shot is less
effective this way. Two days of no nausea is heaven. Sady
I am also seriously considering quitting byetta, going back to 5mcg
or maybe a once a day shot. I have been on 10 mcg for almost 3 weeks
and I am nauseous all of the time. My nausea is worse at nighttime
and the newest thing I am experiencing is chills ? horrible chills.
Every night for the last week within 2 hours of taking my shot I am
getting horrible chills that feel like they are coming from my
bones. It is never less than 70 degrees in our house so there is no
reason for me to get this cold. I end up layering clothes and
getting in bed with a heating pad trying to warm up. It is
ridiculous! Sunday night we were out and I didn’t take my shot and I
didn’t have chills at all. Last night we were at my parents’ house
and I had to leave to come home because I was getting the chills and
couldn’t stay. Is anyone else experiencing this?
Kat
www.halfknits.com
Creating with our hands, giving with our hearts.
Anything posted in this group is the opinion of the person who posted
it.
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Andrew
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Diabetic
Position
May 11th, 2003 at 10:26 pm
The first question is - how much is this helping? If your numbers are
much better, if you struggled for control previously, if you are seeing
some, even if not much, weight loss, then it is important to find ways to
continue using byetta, rather than go back to being poorly controlled.
I mentioned yogurt in a previous e-mail.
Several people have talked about using sea bands and keeping them on
until the nausea subsides.
The byetta blog featured people who talked about getting chills,
particularly in the evening. I get cold after dinner without taking byetta.
Perhaps taking one 10 shot per day and one 5 would make byetta more
tolerable and still offer its benefits. The 5 shot would be used at the
time you have the worse problems. You can use a 5 pen for that so there
will be no question about how long the pen can last. It will be used up
before it is outdated. If the doctor writes the prescription properly,
the insurance should cover the pens. After a period of time on this
regimen, it might be possible to go on to two 10 shots a day.
However, if you find no benefit from byetta, or the drawbacks outweigh
the benefits, there is no reason to continue taking it. But it is
important that you not go back to previous methods of control, if you
were not well controlled. There are other ways to good control and
several online lists that can help.
May 12th, 2003 at 6:12 am
I am also experiencing this. But I am so happy with the byetta results
that I don’t want to quit. The nausea and chills subside after a couple of
hours.
Jane
May 12th, 2003 at 10:30 am
Janie,
I too feel colder since byetta. It’s strange because I have always felt
hot but with a low normal body temp like yours.
Jane
May 12th, 2003 at 3:55 pm
Rebecca, I hadn’t read this on the site. I always eat within an hour of
taking the byetta, often within minutes. Do you have the link?
May 12th, 2003 at 6:28 pm
I just checked the booklet in the starter kit. It just said take the Byetta
one hour before a meal.
No reference to wait 20 minutes. It also said that if you forget the dose
DO NOT take it while eating or after the meal. SKIP the dose.
Pam
——-Original Message——-
Rebecca, I hadn’t read this on the site. I always eat within an hour of
tatking the byetta, often within minutes. Do you have the link?
Janie
Anything posted in this group is the opinion of the person who posted it.
May 13th, 2003 at 5:07 am
That is one of the best advice i’ve heard in ahwile. Thank you.
Rebecca
On Jan 11, 2006, at 12:23 PM, Helen Mueller wrote:
The first question is - how much is this helping? If your numbers are
much better, if you struggled for control previously, if you are seeing
some, even if not much, weight loss, then it is important to find ways
to
continue using byetta, rather than go back to being poorly controlled.
I mentioned yogurt in a previous e-mail.
Several people have talked about using sea bands and keeping them on
until the nausea subsides.
The byetta blog featured people who talked about getting chills,
particularly in the evening. I get cold after dinner without taking
byetta.
Perhaps taking one 10 shot per day and one 5 would make byetta more
tolerable and still offer its benefits. The 5 shot would be used at
the
time you have the worse problems. You can use a 5 pen for that so
there
will be no question about how long the pen can last. It will be used
up
before it is outdated. If the doctor writes the prescription properly,
the insurance should cover the pens. After a period of time on this
regimen, it might be possible to go on to two 10 shots a day.
However, if you find no benefit from byetta, or the drawbacks outweigh
the benefits, there is no reason to continue taking it. But it is
important that you not go back to previous methods of control, if you
were not well controlled. There are other ways to good control and
several online lists that can help.
Helen
Anything posted in this group is the opinion of the person who posted
it.
May 13th, 2003 at 12:11 pm
I just looked at byetta.com and it says to do the injection anytime within the
one hour before you eat. Pat
Pam
——-Original Message——-
Rebecca, I hadn’t read this on the site. I always eat within an hour of
tatking the byetta, often within minutes. Do you have the link?
Janie
Anything posted in this group is the opinion of the person who posted it.
Visit your group "Diabetes_And_Byetta" on the web.
May 15th, 2003 at 2:57 am
It is hard to say how much the byetta is helping me.
I am not considered type 2 yet, but right on the border and a little
over on all of my blood tests. Right now I am considered pre-
diabetes. The thought process here is that left untreated I will be
type 2 in a very short time.
My main problem is not how high my BG levels get, it is the rate in
which they rise. My glucose tolerance test was a horrible
experience. I drank the glucose and within a few minutes the room
started spinning and I almost passed out. By the time they did my
first blood draw I was around 200, but rebounded quickly. As a rule
I do NOT eat pasta, potatoes, sweets, soda, etc. My body won’t
tolerate them. The glucose test was a shock to my system to say the
least!
My other problems before byetta were unquenchable thirst and general
fatigue. I got up several times a night to drink water and my
insides hurt. Since starting byetta I am not having any of these
problems. I sleep all through the night.
I have lost weight, which is a good thing. I need to lose
approximately 25 - 30 pounds to be my ideal weight. I guess I really
don’t care about my "ideal weight", I just think that the weight
retention is another symptom and maybe losing weight will prevent me
from becoming diabetic.
When I started the 5 mcg I was sick for the first 2 weeks. After
that I leveled out and was doing okay. Then I went up to 10 mcg and
I haven’t recovered. I have a high tolerance to pain, but nausea is
another story. I feel like I am having morning sickness 24/7 with no
baby reward at the end! LOL! The chills I have is not your normal
chills, I can’t get warm at all. I am a bit bloated and I am trying
to get used to the GI issues. I can handle everything, except the
nausea and now the chills.
I guess if I saw an end in sight it would better. I feel so sick all
of the time and am unable to do the things I normally do. It is just
frustrating.
Sorry this is so long. I am going to see my doc on Friday and am
open to any and all suggestions. I value everyone’s input and have
learned so much on this list.
Thanks,
Kat
May 15th, 2003 at 8:07 am
Don’t quit, go back to the 5mcg dose. Let’s assume that you feel fine
there. Stay at that level as long as you like, watch your numbers and
your A1c. If your A1c is below 6, below 5.5 would be better, then just
stick with this dose and whatever else you are doing.
If your A1c is above, consider more lifestyle changes first, still
staying at 5mcg. Exercise more, you can do that with the kids and burn
off some of their energy. Vigorous dancing might be a good choice, I
think they would enjoy that.
A little tweaking of food may go a long way.
Weight loss may or may not help. I know the doctors always say that it
does; but I have met people on diabetes lists for whom it did nothing.
Still, that is no reason not to lose.
The big deal is the nausea and if you didn’t have it on 5mcg, but did
have some good stuff, that’s the dose for you. Now all you have to do is
convince the doctor!
Kat, that may not be enough. I see three alternative in the future if
further weight loss, 5mcg twice a day and lifestyle changes do not
succeed: 15mcg total byetta a day, with either a 5 shot and a 10 shot,
or three 5 shots. Three fives might serve you better if you can work out
good spacing. Or, eventually, going back to 2 10s a day. The third
alternative is insulin, with or without byetta. But that is all in the
future, today is what you need to focus on now.
May 15th, 2003 at 10:57 am
Are you taking any other meds. If not your doc such probably have started
you with an oral.
I had read that Byetta was a last resort for Type 2s who were becoming or
were insulin resistant to other meds.
Pam
——-Original Message——-
It is hard to say how much the byetta is helping me.
I am not considered type 2 yet, but right on the border and a little
over on all of my blood tests. Right now I am considered pre-
diabetes. The thought process here is that left untreated I will be
type 2 in a very short time.
My main problem is not how high my BG levels get, it is the rate in
which they rise. My glucose tolerance test was a horrible
experience. I drank the glucose and within a few minutes the room
started spinning and I almost passed out. By the time they did my
first blood draw I was around 200, but rebounded quickly. As a rule
I do NOT eat pasta, potatoes, sweets, soda, etc. My body won’t
tolerate them. The glucose test was a shock to my system to say the
least!
My other problems before byetta were unquenchable thirst and general
fatigue. I got up several times a night to drink water and my
insides hurt. Since starting byetta I am not having any of these
problems. I sleep all through the night.
I have lost weight, which is a good thing. I need to lose
approximately 25 - 30 pounds to be my ideal weight. I guess I really
don’t care about my "ideal weight", I just think that the weight
retention is another symptom and maybe losing weight will prevent me
from becoming diabetic.
When I started the 5 mcg I was sick for the first 2 weeks. After
that I leveled out and was doing okay. Then I went up to 10 mcg and
I haven’t recovered. I have a high tolerance to pain, but nausea is
another story. I feel like I am having morning sickness 24/7 with no
baby reward at the end! LOL! The chills I have is not your normal
chills, I can’t get warm at all. I am a bit bloated and I am trying
to get used to the GI issues. I can handle everything, except the
nausea and now the chills.
I guess if I saw an end in sight it would better. I feel so sick all
of the time and am unable to do the things I normally do. It is just
frustrating.
Sorry this is so long. I am going to see my doc on Friday and am
open to any and all suggestions. I value everyone’s input and have
learned so much on this list.
Thanks,
Kat
Anything posted in this group is the opinion of the person who posted it.
May 15th, 2003 at 5:00 pm
Pam, I’m taking it off-label, which means I’m only using insulin with
Janie
the Byetta (Lantus in evening and Humalog as needed). I was taking up to
60 units a day between the two insulins and not happy with the constant
hunger and weight gain. I’m so happy for the Gilly.
> I had read that Byetta was a last resort for Type 2s who were becoming or
May 15th, 2003 at 9:18 pm
Kat, the unquenchable thirst and general fatigue are common symptoms of
diabetes, so the byetta may well be helping you. I was having those
symptoms when I was diagnosed.
May 16th, 2003 at 4:59 am
My new doc considers Byetta a "third-line" med. Which I guess means "last
resort". I know a lot of people are put on metformin at the beginning and
then other things are added as necessary.
Sherry
Are you taking any other meds. If not your doc such probably have started
you with an oral.
I had read that Byetta was a last resort for Type 2s who were becoming or
were insulin resistant to other meds.
May 16th, 2003 at 3:53 pm
My new doc considers Byetta a "third-line" med. Which I guess means "last
resort". I know a lot of people are put on metformin at the beginning and
then other things are added as necessary.
Sherry
Are you taking any other meds. If not your doc such probably have started
you with an oral.
I had read that Byetta was a last resort for Type 2s who were becoming or
were insulin resistant to other meds.
Pam
Anything posted in this group is the opinion of the person who posted it.
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May 16th, 2003 at 5:38 pm
ok i have no idea where i saw that. must be nuts
if i do find it
i’ll let you know. sorry.
Rebecca
May 16th, 2003 at 9:57 pm
Helen,
I have been on Metformin for months with no change in BG levels or
symptoms. Right now I only take 500 mg with dinner and that is it.
Before byetta I exercised 6 times a week for 1-2 hours a day. Before
starting 10mcg I was walking 5 miles a day. I am quite active and I
think this is one of the biggest reasons I am frustrated at this
time. I don’t like feeling so nauseous as it limits my activities.
As for diet…I just don’t see where I can change. I have eaten more
bread since starting Byetta. I eat 1 - 2 pieces of whole grain bread
a day, but that is the only carb I eat on a regular basis.
My doctor is pretty easy going and will be open to whatever I
suggest. It sounds like you have some great ideas. I think I will
talk to him about going back to 5 mcg and see what happens. I didn’t
have a shot tonight and I feel great. No chills and no nausea.
Thanks for all of the valuable information.
Kat
May 17th, 2003 at 3:06 am
You’re welcome.
On the rxlist.com site, I believe, it says that metformin is not
therapeutic until the 1500mg a day dose. However, I have seen reports of
action by different people on the other lists at 500mg.
When you were on the five shot, did you notice any problem after dinner?
How are your morning bgs?
The reason I am asking, I am wondering if metformin might do more for you
at bedtime. I take one of my doses then.
May 17th, 2003 at 9:05 am
You’re welcome.
On the rxlist.com site, I believe, it says that metformin is not
therapeutic until the 1500mg a day dose. However, I have seen reports of
action by different people on the other lists at 500mg.
When you were on the five shot, did you notice any problem after dinner?
How are your morning bgs?
The reason I am asking, I am wondering if metformin might do more for you
at bedtime. I take one of my doses then.
Helen
Anything posted in this group is the opinion of the person who posted it.
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May 17th, 2003 at 11:42 am
Melissa, did you have problems with metformin? Or is the doctor still
upping your dose?
May 19th, 2003 at 4:04 am
Ok I found this LOL
No, not really.
First I took GlucatrolXL and Actos. Actos gave me such trouble! I was in severe
muscle pain so I had to go off that.
And then he gave me something that didnt work. I dont remember what it was
called, but started with an A.
I then took Lantus for a year, but lost weight and went off that. At the same
time I tried Starlix. I did so so on that.
But the GlucXL/MetF/Byetta combo is working wonderfully!
Melissa, did you have problems with metformin? Or is the doctor still
upping your dose?
Helen
Anything posted in this group is the opinion of the person who posted it.
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Diabetic Position
May 19th, 2003 at 11:03 pm
Personally I think that if pre-diabetics took byetta, that they would never
develop diabetes. It might be the only drug they ever need. I like the
fact that the doctor was willing to give it to a pre-diabetic. I guess
that time will tell.
Jane
May 24th, 2003 at 10:30 am
I went to the doctor yesterday and he put me back on 5 mcg. I started
it again this morning and have had very little nausea. He also put me
on metformin twice a day, instead of once. He is open to whatever I
want to do and agrees that I shouldn’t be on the 10mcg with as sick as
it was making me. He also thinks that byetta may be my last hope for
not being insulin dependent.
Thanks for all of the advice.
Kat
www.halfknits.com
Creating with our hands, giving with our hearts.
May 24th, 2003 at 3:57 pm
Kat, it’s great your doctor is willing to work with you and is flexible.
That’s so helpful to us, isn’t it?
Glad the 5mcg is working better for you.
May 24th, 2003 at 7:58 pm
Kat, I am glad that you are working with a flexible doctor; however, I
disagree with him on a point. Going on to insulin is not the end of the
world. Current on the edge thinking is that the sooner you start
insulin, the better. Going onto insulin, particularly when you are first
diagnosed, does not mean staying on it forever. The whole purpose is to
get the bgs down as quickly as possible. After that, with lifestyle
changes, it might be possible to reduce and then go off insulin. I did
and controlled with diet and exercise for several years.
And, if I knew then, 1983, what I know now, it would have been longer.
May 24th, 2003 at 10:47 pm
Kat,
How much better were your BS #s with the 10. My numbers have been pretty OK
with the 5 with the exception of morning ones. I am afraid if my doc wants
me to change to 10 I will go very low in afternoon and evening (my reading
are 95-140 pre and post meals and bedtime).
Pam
——-Original Message——-
Kat, it’s great your doctor is willing to work with you and is flexible.
That’s so helpful to us, isn’t it?
Glad the 5mcg is working better for you.
Janie
Anything posted in this group is the opinion of the person who posted it.
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Diabetic Position
May 25th, 2003 at 8:00 am
I think that one of my concerns is becoming insulin dependent. My
brother has type 1 diabetes and has since we were kids. While I
understand it is not the same, I do worry about what diabetes can
and will do to my body.
I don’t think that my doctor thinks that going on insulin is the end
of the world, he just thinks that byetta, if it works, is perfect
for what we are trying to achieve with my health.
There are no lifestyle changes for me to make — that is the
problem. I eat right and exercise. I am extremely active and do
exactly what I am suppose to do. For some reason, my body likes to
hold onto weight and this is a problem. It is not the weight itself,
but the fact that my body stays at the same weight.
I am less nauseous on the 5 mcg. Yay! I may start a higher dose of
metformin in a couple of weeks, but for now I am just taking 1000 mg
per day. He did mention that it is a low dose for me, but wants to
keep me at it for at least 2 weeks.
Someone asked if I saw a difference in my bg on the 10mcg per day
and I honestly didn’t.
Thanks,
Kat
May 25th, 2003 at 5:27 pm
If you can maintain an A1c under six with byetta and metformin, you will
have met the most important goal of all.
Perhaps too, with the addition of more metformin and the continuance of
byetta you will see a weight loss in the weeks to come.
However, with a body like yours, and mine, sometimes even not gaining is
a victory.
May 26th, 2003 at 2:20 am
Helen, you can say that again!